Dream Theater

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Bob Lentil
I'll have to chime in and say that KC's material since Thrak is great stuff. I like The Power to Believe, especially. I'll also have to join Yesspaz and say I've never really understood what's so great about Genesis.

I think others can take over discussing the Genesis and Crimson things. I think I'm getting to a point I don't want to be here, discussing inarguable points and spending time stating a point that really in the long run, doesn't matter. The more I think about it, whether or not I like something is pretty much irrelevant.

My feelings about what has become of Crimson is mine, and I can certainly understand your feelings on Genesis. I'm getting an inclination that I'm probably boring the masses.

(at least we like Rush and King's X)

[podakayne]

as stated by the ever opinionated Yesspaz (said w/love Yspaz)
Interesting, but that's my sentiment about Gabriel-era Genesis!(Not that I'm some huge DT fan or anything).

gabriel tops collins...or is that rock, paper scissors

not that i'm a big fan of...oh wait....i am

[moses]

Yeah the discussion that's going on here is pretty useless. We're talking "this band is good, that one is bad" and "this band is overrated, that one is as good as they're reputed to be."

The truth is that we're talking about opinions and nothing else. Taste in music is one of those things where there are no absolutes. Even if 99% of all people agree that Beethoven was a great composer, it doesn't mean that if someone feels that his music just doesn't reach them their opinion isn't valid from their perspective.

There are absolutes in this world, I believe. Absolute truth, unconditional love, ice cream, things like that. What is or isn't good music isn't one of them.

As amusing as the guy on http://www.youhavebadtasteinmusic.com is, and while I pretty much agree with him, he's not absolutely right either, even though he has a website.

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by podakayne
gabriel tops collins...

Oh, I *SO* didn't need to know that. :P

Moses sez:
There are absolutes in this world, I believe. Absolute truth, unconditional love, ice cream, things like that. What is or isn't good music isn't one of them.

There are absolutes in this world, I'll agree. But you forgot to mention bowling. That's one of the absolutes in this world. And pavement. That too. :P

Seriously (riiiight), in my observations, the only absolutes on this world are that the sun will rise in the east (eventually), and that life will continue, in spite of our best efforts. Everything else is subject to those beasts we call "humans".

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
No it's not. Yes and KC are all they are cracked up to be. Genesis and ELP are over-rated. That's my opinion anyway.

Key words here: "my opinion"

I think King Crimson is grossly overrated. I could listen to four hours of Genesis (any Genesis, before say Abacab) before I can listen to an hour of King Crimson.

But what does over-rated mean? Talent wise? I am in awe of the talent of King Crimson. But, more than an hour of them still bores me. Influential? KC has influenced lots of bands. More than an hour of them still bores me. Bottom line is, music is extremely subjective. Attempting to be too objective about it gets silly quickly. You are entitled to your opinion of Genesis and ELP. I wouldn't try to change it - it sounds like you've heard some or most of the best stuff from these bands. But saying "overrated" gets tenuous, because what you're really saying is that the band in question is OBJECTIVELY not as good as popularly believed. Over-popular may be a better term. Ultimately, what all of us (me included) should say on discussions like this, is I do or don't like a particular band, and it is certainly valid to include why. But, I think any attempt to factualize one's opinion simply dooms us to these never ending debates - because even a subjective opinion can be held passionately.

But that's just my opinion - I could be wrong.

[Rick and Roll]

says it all.

Excellent point, Jim.

[Yesspaz]

Originally posted by progdirjim
Key words here: "my opinion"

Exactly. That's why I included the phrase. I was attempting to say what you said in that post, only in reference to the diatribes against DT. Ivan said DT was over-rated - an opinion statment. I replied that Genesis is over-rated - an opinion statement, and one specifically used because of Ivan's avatar. I didn't mean to start an endless debate!

BTW, I could listen to hours of KC, but never more than one Genesis album at a time (and that's usually a lot). Yes, taste is subjective.

[fugazifan]

bullshit overrated these guy are good their newwer album is metal clones imo scenes from memory is awesome album conceptual one and six degress is good also but their others are like klittle stepping stones its an do or die wit hdrea mtheater mike portnoy is good drummer but he is so much better solo wise in tansatlantic or morse stuff so dt has their ups and down with me

[mr_freeze338]

Exactly. That's why I included the phrase.

It would be your opinion by virtue that you said it anyway.

I think the problem I have with this is that to me, they are not a lightning rod for a discussion like this. They are not conterversial, just really technically sound but soulless in their approach.

There's no consensus for "soul", that's self-appointed. People who aren't crazy about DT's music are quick to point out something like "they're all technical, nothing more"... very easy to assume. I find their music has an immense amount of intensity and emotion, with plenty of melody. "Space-Dye Vest" is hardly an example, but mellow nonetheless. "Hell's Kitchen" and "Stream Of Consciousness" as instrumentals would make for a good dose of "soul" I'm guessing, if you can't get into the vocals just yet. I, for one, love James Labrie's voice more than ever. He's got an immense amount of vocal range. Even next to 10 or so other vocalists, he stands out (anyone ever listen to Ayreon's The Human Equation?).

And what's this about contreversy? What does that even mean? You'd like them to act in a Frank Zappa sort of way? You probably don't mean that in a "every album has a distinct difference" sort of way (which they do), but they do have a very original style of music, considering their early albums anyway. The TOT and SDOIT albums sure didn't help label them as original, but they knew before hand what they wanted to create, and that was a classic metal album, and something ressembling Marillon. Everything before that can't be as easily compared.

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by mr_freeze338

There's no consensus for "soul", that's self-appointed. People who aren't crazy about DT's music are quick to point out something like "they're all technical, nothing more"... very easy to assume. I find their music has an immense amount of intensity and emotion, with plenty of melody. "Space-Dye Vest" is hardly an example, but mellow nonetheless. "Hell's Kitchen" and "Stream Of Consciousness" as instrumentals would make for a good dose of "soul" I'm guessing, if you can't get into the vocals just yet. I, for one, love James Labrie's voice more than ever. He's got an immense amount of vocal range. Even next to 10 or so other vocalists, he stands out (anyone ever listen to Ayreon's The Human Equation?).

And what's this about contreversy? What does that even mean? You'd like them to act in a Frank Zappa sort of way? You probably don't mean that in a "every album has a distinct difference" sort of way (which they do), but they do have a very original style of music, considering their early albums anyway. The TOT and SDOIT albums sure didn't help label them as original, but they knew before hand what they wanted to create, and that was a classic metal album, and something ressembling Marillon. Everything before that can't be as easily compared.

Let me try to explain......I think you're putting words in my mouth here. I said the band is NOT conterversial. They simply play music. For some reason, everyone uses them as a lightning rod. They're just another band. For some reason you took my quote and said they need to be conterversial.

I do not complain about their technical ability. I reserve that for Liquid Tension (the offshoot band) which i think is uneccessarily too technical.

I like Images and Words A LOT. I have four other CD's. What I do think is that they are not real interesting, and therefore not worthy of all this angst.

hope that helps.

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll

I do not complain about their technical ability. I reserve that for Liquid Tension (the offshoot band) which i think is uneccessarily too technical.

Interesting turn of phrase. Too technical? Are you saying "technically difficult for the sake of difficulty at the expense of listenability"?

If so, I'm going to have to disagree. I find LTE to be an interesting sound, giving the shot of heavy hitting in combination with a good deal of technical difficulty, just to keep it interesting (and to keep it from being a heavy metal version of ZZ-Top).

Just my $.02, worth every penny paid.

Roger -Dot- Lee, and sometimes more!

[Rick and Roll]

Originally posted by Roger Lee
Interesting turn of phrase. Too technical? Are you saying "technically difficult for the sake of difficulty at the expense of listenability"?

If so, I'm going to have to disagree. I find LTE to be an interesting sound, giving the shot of heavy hitting in combination with a good deal of technical difficulty, just to keep it interesting (and to keep it from being a heavy metal version of ZZ-Top).

Just my $.02, worth every penny paid.

Roger -Dot- Lee, and sometimes more!

You know when I first heard their stuff I was blown away. But I can't remember why I changed my mind. Methinks I need to give it another listen.

I think I will.

[Roger -Dot- Lee(Admin)]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
You know when I first heard their stuff I was blown away. But I can't remember why I changed my mind. Methinks I need to give it another listen.

I think I will.

Keep me posted on what you think. I'm truly interested in seeing what happened.

Roger -Dot- Lee, likes them in small doses.

[mr_freeze338]

Let me try to explain......I think you're putting words in my mouth here. I said the band is NOT conterversial. They simply play music. For some reason, everyone uses them as a lightning rod. They're just another band. For some reason you took my quote and said they need to be conterversial.

Guess my interpretation wasn't the best. But anyway, I think I know what you mean. For the amount of people who bring up DT in a forum, there isn't enough for them to talk about besides "Which song do you like the most?". Most of the good topics on this band have been tired out, unfortunately. But I always enjoy discussing about which album is superior and how, or which drum sequences were the most interesting, or who's the better keyboardist... things along those lines.

You know when I first heard their stuff I was blown away. But I can't remember why I changed my mind. Methinks I need to give it another listen.

The only part of that album I got tired of quickly was the glorified jamming that was Three Minute Warning. It's unbelievable how these guys can improvise, but I never enjoyed that half hour of pure speed all that much. Everything else on the album is top notch though, although I can't say the same for LTE 2. Everything until "When The Water Breaks" was great on that one, but after that it got lame. If you already do have that second album, listen to Biaxident right away, it's by far the best song they've made.

I find LTE to be an interesting sound, giving the shot of heavy hitting in combination with a good deal of technical difficulty, just to keep it interesting (and to keep it from being a heavy metal version of ZZ-Top).

You can never be too technical if you ask me, as long as you don't negligeate melody.

[alians2]

hard to reply to this one ... personally, DT gets better for me everytime I listen to one of their songs again. There is so much there. It's so complex that it requires many listens before I can totally grasp the big picture. I've been playing for a lot of years ... many instruments. It's nice to hear a band that understands the concept of tonal quality. So much of the prog stuff out there is laced with keyboard and guitar playing with awful tone. No excuse for it. Can't say enough about these guys. The songs take you on a journey. That's the key for me.