In no more than 200 words................

"Steve Hackett is the most Prog guitarist ever" - Discuss.

[Rick and Roll]

I will of course reply, because frankly, I can't help myself.

However, I'm not sure I want to give this any thought. I'll just wait until we get the Steve Howe vs: Steve Hackett discussion going again, then I'll pick up the bodies that are on the field after the discussion>

[mossy]

Most prog and still as cute as back in the early 70's. sigh.

[Yesspaz]

I'll bite. As RnR said, it'll turn into a Hackett/Howe debate, so I might as well begin. I'll give Hackett all the props in the world, but Genesis sounds dated to me; Yes still sounds fresh. I'm going with Howe.

That less than 200?



Someone want to make a case for Robert Fripp? Allan Holdsworth? Slash?

[progdirjim(Admin)]

Originally posted by Yesspaz
I'll bite. As RnR said, it'll turn into a Hackett/Howe debate, so I might as well begin. I'll give Hackett all the props in the world, but Genesis sounds dated to me; Yes still sounds fresh. I'm going with Howe.

That less than 200?



Someone want to make a case for Robert Fripp? Allan Holdsworth? Slash?

Fripp? Same guitar line over and over and over ad nauseum. Holdsworth? Incredible chops, plays with feeling, but more of a jazz god. Slash? I'm not biting on THAT. If I'm wrong and you're serious, we can always pull your show... Howe? Super talented, and a worthy contender, but Hackett covers so much more ground than Howe. Listen to Hackett's solo albums. Blues, Rock, Pop, pastoral, folk, classical, pure prog, and god knows what else. Since prog, to me, is about crossing boundaries, and Hackett crosses them better than anyone, I gotta go with the Hack...

[Yesspaz]

What, Howe's all one style? Straight rock, classical, jazz, bluegrass, country picking, pure prog - all covered by the master. Let us not forget the wide range of guitars Howe plays masterfully: regular six strings + bango, dobro, steel, that Portuguese thing, and things I don't even know the name of on "Ram," koto, etc.

[Rick and Roll]

the center of the Prog Universe is NOT Howe or Hackett......

A lot of them are great in their own way. Steve seems to be the name though.....

[RogorMortis]

For technical reasons I'll stick more to Fred Frith while Steve Hackett is the best guitar composer in prog.

[ivan_2068]

I like to compare Steve Hackett in Genesis with a soccer player called Rikhard who played with Milan, nobody noticed them when they were on the band or on the team, but when they were out, everybody noticed the great talent both had because nothing was the same.

When Genesis was on stage, everybody was topo busy looking at Peter's show and Tony's keyboards to notice the talented guitar player sitting on a chair almost behind everybody else, and when Milan played everybody was impressed with the power of Gullit and the precision of Van Basten tonotice the incredible midfielder who never was part of the show.

But both were team players who never cared, Rikhard served the balls for Gullit and Van Basten while Hackett mixed his guitar with Tony's keyboard to create that haunting atmosphere that was Genesis trademark.

In the moment both left, the team and band turned into crap.

Luckily a guitar player can show his talent with the solo works, something a soccer player can't do.

Iván

PS: Hate the word soccer because the real name is football, but to avoid confusions in our USA friends I use that infamous name.

[Rick and Roll]

Please use the word football.....there are more of you then there are us

I don't agree with the "crap" comment. To me, Banks continued to go OK until after the self-titled, then he didn't seem to care. To me it's just that Rutherford is not enough of a lead guitarist to carry a band like that.

Hackett left because he couldn't get enough of his ideas in place. Which is a shame because he fell into the "I must write and sing everything" trap. Both the former band and the artist suffer in this case.

I happen to like Peter Gabriel's solo efforts because he shares the wealth. But, it doesn't really mean Genesis was better because of him. Banks and Rutherford had great ideas. It's hard for a band to keep going. There was some crap in Gabriel-era Genesis too.

I realize Ivan you are very anti-Phil Collins, but the others share the responsibilty, evidenced by the abysmal "Calling All Stations". Phil played with Brand X you know...seems proggy to me.

My main point is that Hackett is not the reason Genesis was not as good later on. It's a combination of the above.

I like Hackett's solo stuff on average, and some a lot, but there's some stuff that is a bit grating (like his singing).

All that being said, your analogy is well-taken, I like it. And the trademark comment is right on the money!

[roger]

Originally posted by Rick and Roll
but there's some stuff that is a bit grating (like his singing).

maybe he should get together with Neil Young....

[ivan_2068]

Rick & Roll wrote:

I realize Ivan you are very anti-Phil Collins, but the others share the responsibilty, evidenced by the abysmal "Calling All Stations". Phil played with Brand X you know...seems proggy to me.

I think you misunderstand me Rick, I have the most of respect for Phil Collins as a drummer, backing vocalist and even some respect as a lead vocalist, but not as a composer, he turned Genesis in his favorite session musicians and they let him.

Of course each of the 3 guys had his share of responsability in the Genesis debacle, Phil & Mike because they took the band directly to POP and Tony for doing nothing to stop them.

But the case is that if you compare the Genesis albums after Duke with No Jackett Required, there's almost no difference, so Phil was the one who forced his style, even when the other two accepted for the $$$$.

Rick & Roll wrote:

Hackett left because he couldn't get enough of his ideas in place. Which is a shame because he fell into the "I must write and sing everything" trap. Both the former band and the artist suffer in this case.

I don't think so Rick, Hackett left because the band was taking a path he didn't agree with.

WOG: Do you recall a particular moment when you were in Genesis when you felt that it just wasn't worth staying in the band anymore?

SH: (...)I was really edging away from the group at that point. I was getting tired of bringing ideas into the group which I felt they weren't going to do. If the ideas were more radical, they weren't necessarily going to do them. I felt that the band was heading towards an area that was becoming very safe.
From: http://home.hetnet.nl/~nickgielkens/...t%208-2001.htm

There was a lot of pressure against him, just take a look at the videos from the W&W tour, Phil and Mike are together all the time and vastly filmed, Tony is worried only about his keyboards but also gathers a lot of tape, but Steve is like placed aside.

Some of his guitar solos were terribly mutilated (as Tony said on Genesis a History and then tried to make it sound as a joke), he left the band because it wasn't a healthy environment for him:

On the 'Genesis – A History' video which was released in 1990, Tony Banks jokes that once Steve announced that he was to leave the band: "We just mixed him out of the rest of the album and carried on!".

David Dunnington writes:

Steve did say at the time that he wasn't happy with the sound on the album; he felt he would have been able to give it more power but didn't want to fight to get his hands on the desk during the mixing sessions. Reading between the lines I would say Steve felt that the guitar was "mixed down" and keyboards given more prominence.

Also the band put a lot of Pressure trying to force him to leave his solo career, but nobody said a word when Mike formed The Mechanics and Phil started a profitable solo career.

If you don't agree with something, the more healthy thing to is to leave, and that's what Steve did in a good moment for him.

Iván